Book Review with Betty Adamou
Posted by Ray Poynter, 5 May 2021
Today I interviewed Betty Adamou, author of Games and Gamification in Market Research, for the latest episode of the NewMR Podcast. Click on the player below to listen, or to download the podcast for later.
Transcript of Interview with Betty Adamou, May 2021 – generated automatically by HappyScribe which means it will be about 80% accurate – if you spot confusing errors, please email firstname.lastname@example.org. The timestamps are included to help you jump directly to a point of interest.
Hi, everyone, welcome to another new book review today, I’m delighted to welcome my good friend Betty Adamou, author of Games and Gamification in Market Research, which was published in 2019. Hi, Betty. Hi, how are you? I’m great.
Hope you are, too. Yes, thank you very much. While we are in spring now, aren’t we, the weather is better. Less dreary days, more sunshine. So that definitely helps with things opening up COVID-wise in the UK as well. Absolutely.
So in terms of the book, perhaps we should start with why you and your publisher Kogan Page felt the book was necessary.
That’s a really good question. Well, actually, I thought it was necessary first, so for a while during my running of research through gaming, I had often thought to myself, I really need to put this in writing all of these kind of theoretical frameworks, the design approaches. And there’s a lot of information which for a few years I was putting bits and pieces, went on in columns or in articles for magazines or interviews. But there wasn’t a one stop shop place where I encompassed absolutely everything to do with games, the gamification of market research, and so with the force of nature, that is Andy Pettit, who you and I know very well.
And she’s a key figure, as she should be in market research. She and I are quite close. And she would say to me, you know, for goodness sake, you’ve got to write this book. You’ve got to start getting words on paper. She tried to game the approach for me writing the book, and she would say, you know, I want to see fifty thousand words by this point and she’d give me a star and things like that.
But as with all these sorts of things, you have to find that motivation within yourself and gamification can help. And so then I started to get words down on paper, and then I wrote an article linked in about finding it difficult to write hitting, although there was lots of ideas there, just really feeling the weight, if you like, of this. What I thought was a gargantuan task. And the article I wrote on LinkedIn was how high is Lantau peak?
And I was basically using me climbing a mountain in Hong Kong and not knowing the height of it until I actually climbed it as a metaphor for book writing. I think sometimes if you know how big the drop is before you start, it can make you more reluctant to start. So in some cases, me not knowing the height of this mountain, the ignorance is bliss. So I didn’t know this page had thrown me. I didn’t know how they heard of me or what, but I noticed that I could Jenny from and was following me on Twitter.
She liked this link to an article. And then I felt terribly embarrassed because there was a few F bombs in the article. But nevertheless, she followed me and she asked me if I would like to meet her in London and which I did. And she verbally offered me the opportunity to write the book under a page. And I must say, I didn’t accept the offer straightaway because as you know. Right, there are pros and cons to going self publishing down the publisher route in the end and with your advice as well.
I remember emailing you lots about it at the time we agreed and the book was published on the Coke and page and that really soon got a rocket up my bum because I was absolutely not procrastinating any more after that because contract dictates there are deadlines.
Excellent. Yeah, it’s a combination really isn’t it. External pressure and internal repression. You need both. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You need the accountability as well as your own. You’re going drive. So the title of the book refers to games and gamification. So what’s the difference between the two? That’s a very good question and one that I get asked lots, and I think the most straightforward way to describe it is that a serious game is a game that has been realised as such from the very beginning.
So we’ve got a problem to solve. We’re going to design that as a game because we want to collect data from the user experience or increase engagement. A monopoly is a fantastic example of a serious game. It was actually designed as a kind of immersive education to all of these. All the realities of capitalism and capitalism fundamentally isn’t fair. And that was designed as a serious game. And the wonderful thing about serious games is, again, as we see an example like Monopoly is that lots of people can enjoy a serious game.
It doesn’t have to be for an audience that is strictly intended in the case of Monopoly, for only users that are interested in politics and economics, for example, these things can transcend age and experience to interested everybody. So serious games are realised as such from the start, whereas gamification tends to borrow the more superficial elements of games like points and badges and applying those to things that are not games. So earning points from your weekly grocery shop, from test scores and so on.
That is a great example of gamification because you do get points. Sometimes you can get bonus points for a bank holiday. We can shop or buy one, get one free points or whatever it might be, and those build up. And as your points build up, you might get a free Frankenthal or money or vouchers or whatever, and those are stagnated points and things like that. So in that sense, there are levels, aren’t there? So those are the most superficial elements.
Another really good example of gamification or applications like Duolingo, which is a very game of learning experience for learning new languages, Code academy learning how to code again, that’s broken down into levels with points, badges, progress and things like that. And sometimes there can be a bit of a fine line between where a game defined platform ends and a series game begins. But broadly, those are the differences. A serious game is a fully fledged game with all the bells and whistles, if you like, and gamification just kind of borrows those superficial elements to gamify something that wasn’t originally a game.
Now, thanks for that. That’s really helpful. Jumping to the book itself is divided into four sections. Will understanding world design, world of making and then the final chapter sections are new market research world. So can you outline the thinking behind the world’s approach? Yes, well, with most games that I used to play when I was younger, there were worlds. So you play a game like Super Mario three and that was world want the world to mould free and things like that.
And that would give you a good sense. It was actually very functional as a tool within the game because it would give you a very good sense of where I am now in the broad scheme of the game and what am I going to potentially learn about all the obstacles I’m going to overcome in this particular section? And it was the same thing with the book. And so I thought, well, these are distinct, very distinct areas because, yes, we start off with the theory.
But actually when we move to the design approaches, that’s very different. And actually you have to learn about that theoretical underpinning before you can go into the design and then before you go into the making and the execution. And so in that sense, it is like using levels within a book because actually you couldn’t really start reading the book about three and learn about executing a game before that piece of market research without learning first how to design it and without learning before about why you would want to use gamification in the first place.
And so that was the approach there. And the last chapter you mentioned new market research world. That was really my way of letting the audience, let the readers understand not just my view of where I would like to see things go when it comes to using games and market research. But actually how the use of gamification market research has lots of harmonies with other market research approaches and actually can elevate the industry at large in other ways. So one example is the ability to use research games for predictive modelling, because if you can simulate experiences in a game and you know how people will react to differently to a situation A versus situation B, then that’s going to help with a lot of predictive modelling in the future.
So that last chapter is really looking ahead and making some predictions as well. Some of those predictions have come to light up. Most of them haven’t. But I think that it’s too early on to say really that some of those things were quite futuristic.
Most things take longer than two years, even when they look at that meeting. Interesting comment there that you that you shouldn’t try to use gamification or games before you think about the design and you shouldn’t think about design before you think about the understanding. But don’t you find that some people do want to start with the games process? They’ve decided we need to game this process and they haven’t really thought about either of those other elements.
Yes, and it’s gone terribly wrong. And so, I mean, that sounds like I’m being overly facetious, but I’m really not. And I have studied at length a lot of what has come out of the game of flight market research industry. And one of the things that really breaks my heart is the huge amount of design and programming and coding that’s going on. And then you get somebody stuck in the conference and saying, well, we didn’t really get very good results.
And then I look at the design and I think, well, why are you using avatars dressed in armour? And you’ve got this narrative about Greek gods and the fates, about a study to do with utility bills. You need a harmony, and the reason you need the harmony is because the the use of gamification market research is a means to an end. The game of find a piece of market research is about helping a person become more engaged in more research, immerse them in the context that you’re discussing.
And so that’s where the design is hugely important. And I know you’ve spoken not that long ago to Rachel Laws, who wrote her book on semiotics. And actually there’s a huge amount of semiotics in the gamification of market research. You want to make sure that good design is driving the engagement. And so inevitably what happens is when you’ve got this disjointed game design approach, it’s got nothing to do with the content of the research. Then, of course, you’re going to put your audience, single users off because of thinking, well, this is just really confusing now.
And action might have preferred just dry questions on a screen. And so, yes, there is an eagerness for a lot of practitioners to just get started. But actually, if you want to save yourself, frankly, a lot of time and money, try to understand what you’re doing first, because although it might seem to some people like a bit of a fun, perhaps frivolous approach, actually, there’s a lot of psychology and science behind the use of gamification, serious games.
And just like you wouldn’t start using behavioural economics without reading a single book, you shouldn’t really use gamification without understanding what you’re doing first. And it’s something that I’ve dedicated the best part of my adult life to and I feel very passionately about. And I and I hope that the passion, as well as the clear understanding really comes across for readers and helps them. But yes, you have to study first, read something first before you get started.
Absolutely. So think about you. The book’s been out for a couple of years now. What’s been the impact on you and the things that you’ve done since it’s been published? Well, it’s a really good question. I think when it first got published, there was an initial excitement. I’ve done the thing, I’ve done the big gargantuan thing. And then there was a lull where I didn’t want to look at the book for months because I just felt like it really took the heart and soul out of me.
And that’s not to say I didn’t enjoy the experience of writing, but I just think there’s something about saying I’ve done the thing and actually I need to take a mental and emotional break before I can kind of revisit. So when I have been able to have a bit of a break, I’ve actually been able to look at it and just hold it in my hands or on a shelf and just think, wow, I did that. I set out to do a thing and I did it.
I’m very good at starting things. You know, finishing them is quite different, but that’s not a bad thing. Some people are not good at starting things and I happen to be. So that’s great. So that it really is a great sense of accomplishment in terms of what impact it’s been. One of the most rewarding things is to get an email from a student and then say, oh, a your book. And it was in my university library.
And I know that there’s a secret code to unlock the secret website. And I have and I’m having an exchange with them. And that’s wonderful because they are really these young students that carrying the firearm for the next generation of market research. And as much as it’s lovely to hear from professionals who are more established in their careers, there is something that gives me a little bit more excitement and passion when I hear from younger people. And one of my mentees, her name is.
We were having a kind of mentoring session and she brought with her the laminated version of my book with the university library called On the Inside. And I was a wonderful feeling. And it’s just it’s been nice to hear from people who are saying, I have read this. This is inspired me. I finally understand gamification, market research and they’ve been tinkering about with their own methods and it’s been helping them. Just a quick note on how do you feel about signing books when you’re asked to sign books?
Oh, it’s a mixed one, really, because I think this is just more of a complex thing than anything else, because I just think I’m not bloody Stephen King. But at the same time, there’s clearly a reverence there. And people, they want the signed book, and I’m happy to oblige. It does make you feel a little bit. In the spotlight and you sort of I think you and I rightmost, although we are very public speaking and our work, I think probably behind that public speaking.
The sort of thing that you and I find those things slightly icky and people would be surprised to know that I’m a bit of an introvert. So when I was keynoting the Gamification Europe conference in Berlin a couple of years ago and there was a stand there and I was signing all sorts of books and people taking photos of me signing. Yeah, it’s great on the one hand, because I’ll be on my deathbed in the future knowing I did such an awesome thing.
But at the time, a little bit. A little bit awkward. Little bit.
Oh you know, what about you? Yeah, I’m exactly the same feeling. But in addition, I am absolutely super anxious that I’m going to misspell their name, misspelled my name or rub ink right across.
Yeah, right, absolutely, yeah. This is the irony. You’ve written a whole book without a spelling mistake, but signing it just gives you a cold sweat. Absolutely. I totally get that.
So, Jimi, back to games and gamification. If someone was looking to start using getting into this area, how would you suggest they go about starting? That’s a good question. So what I should say by my book, that’s so great by my book. Secondly, read it. If you’re like there’s a fantastic Japanese term for somebody who buys a lot of books and with the good intention to read them but doesn’t and just buys books. I can’t remember what the word is, but don’t be one of those people who read the book.
And I would say play and take part in as many serious games and gaming applications as possible, because these days all game of hide applications collect data they are in in some way, shape or form under the umbrella of market research. So you might play a health care game, you might play to Point Hospital, you might try to launch code in Code academy. You might try to learn a language on Duolingo. You might try to do your housework in a more timely manner, playing a game of troll wars.
But the main thing that you’ll be able to see in having those experiences is how people are designing games to push engagement in all sorts of different disciplines, whether it’s training, education, marketing and so on. And the fact that they’re collecting data, they’re collecting data. There’s a fantastic gamification in marketing example that I tend to show people in my workshops and lectures and things like that. And it’s an app called Covert Fashion, and it’s not advertised as a serious game.
It’s just a game. So you download it on your phone and you have a play and you’re given different. You’re given an avatar that you can dress up and you’re given different briefs. So tonight you have to dress like you’re going to the Oscars or tonight you’re dressing like you’re going to go on a road trip with your boyfriend or your having a tie in with the girls. And the great thing about this app is that the clothes, your dressing, your avatar in all genuine clothes and accessories are available to buy from over one hundred and fifty brands today.
So suddenly we’re talking about a game that’s a sales tool, but actually because data is collected throughout that campaign process, is now a market research tool, it’s a it’s a tool for understanding micro trends and preferences. It’s even a tool to correlate between preferences of different colours of clothes and styles opposed to different ages of women. Because, of course, the user profiles collect the data first and and region and so on. And it’s also a marketing tool because as your dressing up your avatar, you are seeing brands like Calvin Klein and French Connexion and so on.
And so this one game is is all of these things. It’s researched the sales to. It’s a marketing tool and a French connexion, who, as you and I will remember. Right. Really don’t have a problem with marketing, that they have had some absolutely fantastic marketing campaigns in the past. But they all quoted to say that the app is the future of sales marketing, and it’s one of the top sources of e-commerce sales, which is which is quite a feat.
And so I think when researchers take part in time for apps like that to really see the unity between design and function, that is hugely inspirational. And it I do it to this day. I have some tools where I have some inspiration at my fingertips, but new things are coming out all the time and so forth here about a game of up. I think we’ll have that. That might help me with something I’m working on at the moment. It might switch on a light bulb of overnight there.
And so, yeah, I definitely think that’s a great place to start. And the other thing is, because, of course, a lot of market researchers, they do admit, well, I don’t play games. And so, yes, obviously, it’s going to be really hard then, isn’t it, for you to design a serious game, serious research game or a game of fight of a if you’ve never played a game before in your life?
So, yeah, use as an excuse to have a play around. It’s going to inspire you. It’s going to give you ideas. And while you’re playing these things, study them, take notes, have a notepad there. Oh, how how how have they got the user engaged in going up a level. Hey, what kind of reward systems have they used. Can that be useful in my survey somehow. I mean these days this serious games for all sorts of things.
I mean the serious games on Facebook, on being pharma, on running around Kafe of the most benign, you know, things that you can imagine. And so why shouldn’t market research, which, let’s face it, lots of participants think is boring, why should that have the touch, the magic touch of gamification and elevate engagement. Absolutely. So let’s hope a few people try that. Now, you mentioned earlier a few things, a few thoughts about the book writing process and having somebody to push you and so on.
What are the key ups and downs of writing? What are the key decisions that somebody needs to make if they want to get into writing a book? Yes, well, that’s a very good question, and I think the first thing to do is have a good long think, get out your pros and cons list at White to each of the pros and cons as well. I think that’s another important thing to do. And think about whether you want to go down the self publishing route or you want to go with the publisher, because these days the self publishing route has I mean, it’s really come a long way.
And Amazon have got a few years ago they launched a which is their own kind of self publishing platform, of which they do have experienced editors in the background. So you’re not sort of entirely on their own. And of course, there’s huge amounts of control there, isn’t there? If you’re going to self publish, you can design your own front cover and you can write what you want. And so there’s more control there. But of course, there are some limitations and opportunities by going with a publisher.
I originally wanted to call my book despondence playing games in market research or something along those lines. And that was a big no for the publishing house. And if you’re somebody who’s a bit artsy fartsy dishonouring like me, you want to design your own front, cover, things like that, to be told that you call is quite disheartening. But again, the prose there is that, again, there’s accountability. You’re given strict deadlines and in a sense, it’s game before it.
There are levels at the end of May, you have to give X amount of words at the end of June and so on. So do your personal conflicts there. And also really think about what your book is trying to do, which might sound a bit simple, but or you just there to get people to know about a thing or all you trying to get people to do the thing. Are you are you. Because that involves a very different set of thinking if you’re trying to.
Create some sense of action, like I can read this book and it’s actually work, but there is design guidelines and there’s activities that I could do and there’s things I’m told to go off and do before I read the next chapter and so on. So what do you want your audience to do? That’s something to think about as well. And also, I think having a personal and emotional infrastructure that is supportive is really important. And again, this might sound very simple and benign, but if you are somebody who is writing a book or watching a business coach running a household, trying to maintain some element of a social life, it can become very difficult to do all the things all the time.
And so if you do have a supportive partner who can take over some of those things and bring the capacity like I did, that was very helpful. But I really do think about the infrastructure of your personal life, because you going away and writing the book, yes, you need help. But actually you get in the way of writing the book means that you’re locked away several hours a day and potentially leaving your partner and/or children on their own without your support.
So it’s really important to have a conversation in the home, manage expectations and things like that, but also to schedule in plenty of time for play and rest because it can be very all consuming. Again, as you write all your chuckling there, I think, with probably that element of knowing exactly how that feels. Yeah, it can be really all consuming. And sometimes you do just need to go out and have a drink with your friends after to let off some steam and just think about anything else.
But writing a book so that when you are able to sit down in front of your computer to continue writing, your brightness had a bit of a rest. And actually that, to my mind, you do need that element of having the rest go for being with friends. I personally like walking through nature. I find that very restful and spox ideas so that you’re fresh back at your laptop, perhaps the next day to write Chapter two or whatever it might be.
I was about to move to the U.S., but a curious question, did you write it from chapter one through to three, four to the end or in some other sequence? Yeah, well, the short answer is some of the sequence, so the world one, which is all about the theoretical underpinnings, that was something I was super familiar with and so happy to get on with Bob. The world to about designing was actually one of the more challenging areas, because for a while, up until that point, for eight years, I was the only one designing this stuff and never really had to teach anybody.
And so suddenly I found myself in a position, well, how do I tell other people what I do and how I do? And the best way to do it, that sounds that doesn’t sound too weird, because there is a there is a section to talk about the CMC approach, the approach which is all about smart intuition and meaningful creativity, which does sound and I feel that it does fit, as I’m saying out loud right now. But actually that was that is really one of the most important things to my design process, because you may indeed have an inkling of, oh, right here I am designing level one of my research game and I’ve got an inkling that this approach is going to work.
So that’s just that’s just my intuition built from your life experience or your experience as a professional researcher. But the. But is it functional? Is it meaningful? Does it have a function in the broader scope of what you’re doing? And that’s where the meaningful creativity comes in, where you will be able to say, OK, I’d like to use avatars in a survey. But what real meaning and function does that have here or am I just designing for design sake?
So it is a method of checking in with yourself, if you like, as a designer? Yeah, I find that the hardest piece to do, even though design is I am a artist and design is very much in my bones, it was the hardest. Right, just because I never had to tell anybody before. And so here I have I done a good job of helping others. I don’t know is the honest answer. I haven’t had anybody yet come up to me to say, well, I’ve read your whole bloody book and I still don’t know how to define this.
I haven’t had that. But I tried to design some worksheets and talk about some design approaches in a more practical step by step fashion. I genuinely hope it helps. But again, as with anything creative, you’ve got to do it, haven’t you? So as much as I have put a huge amount of blood, sweat and tears into that chapter about designing, ultimately the reader has to go and do the designing to to see if they get it or not, or to see if they are inspired to do it and so on.
So, yeah, it was a little bit of a back and forth. So yeah. And the predictions at the end of the future, looking back at that time, can be quite easily because those were ideas that were percolating for a long time anyway. And the world through the execution part, I did last just because it was the easiest part, because it basically is what you’ve got your design now. You’ve got to take it to a developer has some things to think about from a tech perspective and a cost perspective and so on.
So, yes, it’s not linear at all. But actually, I don’t know anybody who’s written a book and it’s been a linear process. They’ll probably got an idea down for something that needs to be said in Chapter five and sort of maybe work backwards from there or something like that. What about you, Ray? You might actually say the opposite because your brain works very differently. You might say no. I did actually write my books in a very tedious process.
No, I’m absolutely not. And I think it’s great advice not to. So sometimes when people ask me for help, they’re struggling over the introduction. And really the interaction is probably something you’re going to write less. You can write just a few words down and move on. And quite often I will just write whichever is easiest could be the middle. It could be the end. If if an idea occurs to me while I’m writing one piece, I will just move forward or backward in the document, put here, write something about this and then go back to where I was.
Or if I get a finished idea, several paragraphs suddenly coming to my head, I will go and write things, move backwards and forwards. So I’m always trying to chip away at the easiest bit. And if if I have no inspiration, then I go and do the referencing, the indexing, the siting and all of these tasks which you can do just by forcing yourself to do it as opposed to having inspiration. Yes, absolutely, and I remember you actually giving me that advice, which I found handy, another thing I’d say is I had a very hefty notebook at my bedside.
And if you’re like me and actually ideas come at the most inconvenient times in the bath, having a shower, trying to get to sleep, actually having a notebook with me was great because I form a sentence in the most beautiful manner in my mind. And I tell myself, remember that in the morning. Remember that in the morning. And of course, morning comes along. Have I remembered it? Have I diddlysquat. So having the notebook there was great because you just get the ideas out and actually you go to sleep better because you’re not now not trying to go to sleep because you’re telling the stuff to remember something in the morning.
So a really simple thing again, but a tool that worked marvellously for me personally. The writing process.
Absolutely. So what next for you? What next for writing? What next for games? Got all three of those are very big questions, so what’s next for me? Well, research pregaming gaming celebrates its 10th birthday this very month.
Thank you very much. And it’s been it’s been a wonderful adventure. I’ve gotten to do fantastic things that I never could have imagined when I was 18, 19 or whatever, although I will say this is probably not the place to announce it, but I feel quite comfortable saying this. And who better with the right that there is there is a career change on the on the horizon. What that career change will be, I don’t know. But I know in my heart that there are lots of other ideas I want to explore.
And I mean, this all sounds very noble, but my passion is in helping others. And so if I’m improving, I research as a research participants experience of a survey and helping a client. Well, that that that lifts me. That lifts my spirit. But actually, there’s lots of other ways I’d like to help people. And I’ve given 10 years to research for gaming. I’m not going to be closing the doors completely. That will remain a door posher because they’re all there’s one or two projects that I’m very passionate about and I want to keep on with those and see those to the end.
And in terms of writing, I may try other things in the future. Indeed, I have written something that has manifested into a workshop that I’ve done with the Lean in organisation and have all sat down with women and research. It’s called the Importance of Celebration. It was a very personal article I wrote that I had the privilege of reading aloud to over one hundred women at the System One offices in London and then online at lean in. And so yeah, this other ideas percolating and I’m of the mind now that I’m approaching thirty six.
Right. That I, I mean this movement, as it sounds, I sort of don’t want to die thinking I did one thing and that’s the one thing I did. I want, I want to be old and know that I did all the things that lifted my spirits and, and made me happy and potentially made others happy too. So that’s next for me. Not very concrete. I know. But I know that a change is coming.
What’s next for four games? They are becoming increasingly sophisticated, as you can imagine mean in the entertainment games industry alone. They are all using virtual reality like it’s nothing augmented reality systems. And so if we think about where gamification, serious games are going to go, market research, I’m really hoping that more and more people come on to the power of that as a methodology with the uses of all these very exciting technologies as well. Because as you know, as as many of us know, brands want to get more and more the emotion and the heart of decision making.
And so if you can immerse people in what can be very emotive experiences in games, I’ve played games and I’ve cried all five times and I’ve become very angry. If you can do that, then you’ll really want to win here. And from my personal perspective and 15 years work in this industry, there really isn’t another methodology that can mimic an experience and get you emotionally invested like a game based methodology. So, yeah, I’d really like to see more brands using game.
If I’d research more agencies adopting those methodologies. Whether they will or won’t is a completely different question. But that’s me hoping. And you ask me a third element there, right? What was that? So what’s next for me? What’s next for games? What’s next for what was the third thing?
So where else do you think our industry is going, even though it may not be our industry in the near future? Yes.
Yes. Well, I think the way you’ve asked that question is very reflective of the answer I’m about to give, which is I think that there be more desperate. I see market research having its own family, if you like. We are a bit of a big family, but I do see that there will be lots of other kind of disciplines and terminologies being used to describe what we do. And, of course, that’s been going on for the last few years anyway.
But I think it’s going to become increasingly apparent and we’re seeing it now. I mean, from a moment in people not really calling themselves market researchers anymore, I am an insight specialist. I am an insight. Report something or other, and there’s a lot of different approaches happening. I don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing, though. I I think that I’d like to see a call for more unity, at the very least, to not duplicate efforts to my story, but also because I think that there’s a huge benefit in collaboration.
So if one set of people to go off and they want to call themselves insight specialists, but everybody else is calling them researchers and then they have their own different conferences and journals that will actually let’s come together, share our knowledge, share our experiences, because we’re at the end at the end of the day, in very football this week, we are all trying to get to the same point. We were trying to get good quality data that genuinely helps organisations.
And so we’re better doing that together. Absolutely, Betty. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for your book. If anybody out there is listening and hasn’t had a chance to read that book, I strongly recommend it. And if you have fine ideas in it, I’m sure Betty would be quite appreciative for feedback from you. Absolutely, and if you’ve got any work that you’ve done well in the Finegold service and want to share those with me, I’m always delighted to see what other people are doing.
And if you are Spanish or Portuguese speaker, there has been a delay because of it. But you’d be pleased to know that the Spanish and Portuguese versions of games with market research will be out by the end of this year.